Dialogue Done Differently – Video Interview with Kiersten Fishburn
Kiersten Fishburn has one of the toughest jobs in NSW, but how does she switch off?
As Secretary of the Department of Planning, Housing and Infrastructure she’s not just managing policy — she’s helping bring the vision for Western Sydney’s future to life.
But beyond the briefings and big decisions, Kiersten is also someone who loves reading and playing the drums — a reminder that even the people shaping our cities have passions that keep them grounded.
In the latest edition of Dialogue Done Differently, we go beyond the title to explore what drives her, what brings her joy, and what makes her tick.
Because the future of our region is shaped not just by policy — but by people.
Listen to the full interview with Kiersten Fishburn below:
Diving into a world of words with Kiersten Fishburn
Read the full Q+A interview with Kiersten Fishburn to discover her secret passions.
AL = Adam Leto | CEO, Western Sydney Leadership Dialogue
KF: Kiersten Fishburn | Secretary, Department of Planning, Housing and Infrastructure
AL: Well, Kiersten, many people know that you’re an avid reader. Tell us about your background in literature, and when did you realise it was such a passion for you.
KF: I’m definitely a voracious reader and I’d probably average about 200 books a year. It has been, ever since I can remember. It is the place that I escape to, and that I learn from and that I emotionally can connect into.
I’ve had big jobs for a long time and when you have a big job, you’re ‘on’ all the time. There is an expectation that you’re always performing, you’re always engaged. You’re usually the person who’s chairing the meeting, who everybody’s listening to.
So, to be able to come home and just sit with a book, which is asking nothing of me other than what I want to give and get out of it, has made a huge difference. It’s also, I think, the place where you can learn empathy, you can learn about other people’s cultures…a whole range of things.
And I think that’s made me a better leader as well, that I have had this wealth of experience of different voices and thinking about it. So enormous part of my life. Never wanted to go into literature because I loved it so much. I never wanted to spoil it by looking at how the sausage is made.
But it will always be probably the greatest joy of my life, outside of my kids, will be the pleasure I’ve got from books.
AL: How do you find the time?
KF: I read paperbooks. I don’t read on a screen because I’m reading screen stuff all day long at work. So, when you’re reading a paper book, you’re holding it in your hands, you can’t be sitting there fiddling on your phone at the same time.
Whereas, if I’m watching television, the instinct to start answering emails…it’s really hard.
So while reading gives me great pleasure, it’s also a discipline to say, ‘I’m going to put down my phone, I’m going to focus on a single thing, I’m going to try and get into that flow space’ that I think is so critical for deep thinking.
AL: Is there any one book or piece of work that actually stands out to you as being memorable or transformative or something that’s had a deep impact?
KF: You come to different books at different times in your life, so things have meant different things to me because of the age I am or where I am in my life.
I started something, and I started it two years ago thinking it would only take me a year, which was probably a bit ambitious, which was to read or re-read every Dickens novel. And I’m about three quarters of the way through.
I kind of had to let it go a bit when I got into this job and we were doing planning reform. I’m a big reader, but a thousand page novel maybe isn’t right for this point in time, but I’ve been back into it.
And I wouldn’t say Dickins is my absolute favourite author, but his world shaping and building he does, the social politics, the connections into the change that was occurring in the 19th century. I’ve found that really interesting at this point in my life where I am involved in doing things that shape communities and societies and that are very political.
And so being able to see that from a 19th century lens, it’s also very funny and engaging and a bit he’s a bit Mawkish, a bit sentimental, I can probably give that bit of miss.
But just terrific things to read at this moment in where I am in my life.
WATCH: Kiersten Fishburn discusses her love of books and reading
AL: On that political sort of lens and understanding your role in your professional journey, what’s the tip to success in that space? How have you balanced the leadership and the work with the politics and still managed to maintain your sanity and being successful as well?
KF: I’ve learnt this more and more as I’ve got older and hopefully wiser.
Being really clear about what your role is, is really important. I am a public servant. I’m not an elected official. Be that a councillor or a minister or a Premier. I am a public servant, and I am beholden to the government of the day – whatever that government is.
However, being a public servant, I have a particular role, which is to give absolute, full, frank, and fearless advice to politics, to speak truth to power.
And so it’s not my job to set the policy objective. That is my minister’s job or a cabinet’s job or a council’s job. But it is my job to give the best possible advice I can to help set that policy framework. And then once a decision has been made, to accept it and operationalise it.
Where I see people – I’m not going to say go wrong – where I see people struggle is when they forget that boundary. They forget that our role is to be the advisers and the implementers, but not the setters of policy.
And I often now advise people, sometimes there will be things where there’ll be two or three different opinions in the department or within ministers or something, it is our job to give our Ministers the best advice we possibly can and to do it in a way that is unbiassed, so not to play off politicians against each other .
But ultimately, they make political choices. And I will say to my staff, this gets decided in a cabinet room. This is not our decision. And then we just accept it.
But it sounds like I’m speaking just base level common sense. But when you’re in the midst of it, it’s exciting and you’re engaged, sometimes you can forget. And people forget.
And the other thing that they forget as well is that if we hated it, if you absolutely hate a decision and you’ve given your best advice, you have two choices: You just suck it up and implement it, because we’re not elected by the people of New South Wales. Or you can choose to resign.
And I see public servants sometimes work themselves up into real frustration because they don’t like a policy position of the day. Well, so be it. It is our job to either accept it, or you can as an individual make a choice about yourself.
AL: Is that hard to sort of create that distance and just say, ‘we’ve done all we can at this point now, it’s out of our hands’ and just be comfortable with you what the outcome is going to be?
KF: I think a lot of people find it very hard and I do a lot of coaching that says, you’ve just got to accept this. I don’t think I’ve ever found it too hard myself. And this is something that I kind of learnt from my own mum when she was in a role like mine. I love my job. I love my job with my heart, but I only love my job to 90%.
There’s 10% of me that can just be pragmatic and say, look, this is a job. And as long as I have done my bits of it really well, I have to accept – maybe it’s because I’m a bit of a stoic – I can’t control what other people choose to do and the decisions that they make.
I can only control the way I react to them. So, I try and keep that in mind all the time. And do I love every piece of policy that has gone through every government I’ve worked for and on every floor of every council I’ve worked for? Absolutely not.
But am I mature enough to accept that it is my job to implement it? Yes, I am.
And to do that and just say, this is how it is. Because I do always, and it sounds like I’m being really harsh, but I always maintain that position that if you absolutely hate it, you can choose to walk away.
No one’s forcing for me into staying that job.
AL: You’ve had a distinguished career in public service. Was that always on the cards for you? How did you get to where you are now?
KF: So my mum had a job like mine.
She was a director-general. And I looked at my mum and thought, I’m not doing that job. And I was a bit bolshy and stuff too. So I went and did an an art history degree. Well, actually, I think it’s called art theory. So even more esoteric.
Thinking I was going to work in the visual arts and I did for a period of time. And then I got a job at the City of Sydney in the cultural area. So still in my kind of portfolio area.
And I just fell in love with councils and I just kept getting promoted and promoted and I ended up running a council and and then when that all fell pieces, as inevitably things seemed to do with a lot of local government, I came into the state and just got promoted there as well.
So very undeliberate career. But I’ve always done things that I’m interested in.
I’ve never done a job where I’ve thought, ‘oh, that’s boring’. It’s always something that actually interests me and I’ve always tried to gravitate towards things that I think I would do well.
So while I’ve never planned anything out, I have made conscious decisions based on those two parameters.
AL: A role in the private sector down the track? Not out of the question?
KF: Oh, maybe, you know? Nothing’s out of question.
I mean, I do joke. I’ve been the a CEO of the fourth largest council. I’ve been a secretary in the state. I probably wouldn’t mind doing the trifecta, doing a secretary in Commonwealth, but you know, we’ll wait in a see what comes next.
AL: That point you made around playing to your strength, I think is quite interesting. I know a lot of people like that, and there’s always some sort of a resistance to start something from the ground up because the fear of not being able to sort of have that ability or confidence to be able to do something they may not so great at it, and step outside of the comfort zone. In your leadership roles, do you look at people coming through and test them a little bit and force them to develop. Or are you a believer and just stick to your lane?
KF: No, I think you’ve got to you’ve got to test yourself and you’ve got to try things all the time. Or else you’d just be bored otherwise, right?
I became a chief executive of a council and I don’t know how to be chief executive of council, but I’d spent previous 15 so years watching people and observing and thinking, ‘if I’ve got the gig, I’d do it this way, or I wouldn’t do that, or I would do this.’
I always say sometimes your best mentor, in a weird way, is a really bad manager, because if you sit there and reflect on why they’re bad and what you would do differently, you’ve probably given yourself a leadership course in and of itself.
I didn’t know how to be a secretary, right? Like who knows how to do you don’t do a university degree to be a secretary. You just get in there and do the job.
WATCH: Kiersten Fishburn discusses how she handles the pressures of her role
AL: Did that cause doubts? Did you ever go into any of these jobs thinking how am I going do this?
KF: It’s funny, I get asked questions about imposter syndrome as well. And I worry when I answer, it makes me, like a sociopath. But I don’t think I ever had those types of doubts. I mean, I have days where I think ‘this feels like too much or I don’t know how to do this, I need to get advice or something’, but I’m pretty good at just working through things practically.
And you know what? I think as well, what’s the worst that happens?
What? You get the sack? I’ve been sacked before and, you know, I was fine.
The world didn’t come to an end. My partner and kids didn’t stop loving me.
My friends didn’t not want to hang out with me. I got another job. It’s not the end of the world.
I think you can paralyse yourself sometimes if you try and overthink things.
You make a mistake. So what? Two days later, everyone’s forgotten.
I’d rather people in my business took calculated risks and made an occasional mistake, then were conservative and did very little. That doesn’t strike me as a functioning environment.
AL: Speaking to your staff and people that have worked with you, including some at Liverpool Council, the thing that comes across is the principles around empowerment and support. Was that a deliberate idea from you that you’ve set, not only doing your job and doing carrying out your responsibilities, but also looking at what is sitting under you and making sure that they’ve got what they need so that they can grow as well?
KF: That is really important to me, and there’s two reasons it’s really important and the first is a very selfish one.
If I have really great people around me who feel empowered to make this decisions and who feel confident in doing their job and feel engaged in work and building up leadership skills, I have to do less work myself.
So, you know, it’s like it benefits me, right?
But I also think as well, let your leaders be leaders. Let them do their jobs. But to do that, you need to empower them, you need to provide information, you need to provide an environment that says, ‘I trust you. And if you make a mistake, it’s not the end of the world and I will fix it for you.’ So that’s really important to me.
I also get an enormous amount of pleasure from seeing people who have worked under me succeed and go further in their careers. That’s very satisfying to me.
You know, I have been the CEO of the fourth biggest council, I have been a secretary now twice. I ain’t got a lot to prove anymore, right?
The legacy I leave is not going to be about what my next job is, because it doesn’t really matter now. It’s going to be about the people who were under me, who I hope I coached through or mentored or guided a bit, and where they go in their careers.
And I think at a certain point, in my type of job, you’re going to have an ego, right? Your ego doesn’t switch off, but it becomes less about your achievements and more about boasting about the people that you’ve managed to bring up through your leadership and that’s what really excites me now to.
WATCH: Kiersten Fishburn reveals her unique passions
AL: Speaking of jobs, you’ve probably got to arguably the biggest in the state. Number one on the government’s agenda is fixing the housing crisis at the moment. How do you stay upbeat knowing the enormity of the sort of challenge?
KF: I think you need to be focussed on the fact that every step forward is a positive step forward. It’s very easy to feel like you’re drowning in goals.
But every DA that we get through that has additional affordable housing on it, for example – which is something I’m absolutely passionate about – that’s affordable housing that wasn’t previously envisaged before we brought in our policy, that’s a win.
So, you focus on the wins as the thing that you go home and think about rather than the, ‘oh, we’ve got to get these many houses delivered and it’s tough and feasibility is genuinely tough’ and all of those issues.
So, I try and remain focussed on those positive outcomes and use that as the guiding star, because or else it would be easy to, really easy to start to feel like it’s too much or you’re drowning in it.
Every bit is a bit that is good.
AL: What does success look like in that sort of 1–2-year period, then 2-5 and then 5-10?
KF: So, look, well, we’ve got the National Housing Accord number. And we’re obviously working towards that at the end of the five-year period.
We have a number of quantitative measures that we would look at in the department. Are the number of DAs that are being submitted increasing? What’s the translation rate? Are there areas where we have rezoned? Are we seeing DAs in there?
All of those things are definitely, I mean, I absolutely will own them as green shoots. I would probably say they’re now trends but maybe hold me a quarter before I say that, but the green shoots definitely are there.
AL: One final one.. I need to ask about the drums. Tell us about your special skill.
KF: Well, I mean, I would barely call it a skill or, more you know, mudding along from Amateur Hour.
So when I was much younger, I did this course called the St. James Fellowship in Ethical Leadership and it was a fantastic course.
And one of the things you got to do is sit down and get a bit of leadership coaching and I said in my leadership thing, I tend to veer towards where I know I succeed. And one of the things suggested to me is ‘you need to do things where you’re going to fail’. Because it is good to build up that resilience.
And so I decided I would take up two things that I was really going to be quite dreadful at.
Iyengar yoga and playing drums.
And they are both things that I passionately love and God, I’m not very good. I mean, I can hold a four on the floor, right? Like, so if it was your basic pub band doing something pubby, not too fast. I could pull it off… But not much beyond that.
AL: You’ve never had the inclination or the push to get up on stage at one of the pubs and just, you know, take the sticks and give it a crack…
KF: Oh, look, you know, I sometimes in my dreams and I think about it, but then I also think, ‘oh, my God, there’d be someone from the Sydney Morning Herald something’ and it would be embarrassing.
But, as a consequence, my son took up drums, and he’s a terrific drum. So that’s, you know, I’ve gifted him the love
AL: I’m just trying to vision what the drumming in the Fishburn household looks like. Is it set up in the garage? Is it one of those electronic ones…
KF: No, I know it’s in my son’s bedroom…Luckily, we live in a neighbourhood we have lots of students or people unfussed about the sound of drumming..
AL: So it’s reverberating…
KF: Oh, you can hear it. Our house is tiny.
AL: That’s great. So, while you’re there, you in the bath reading your latest book, son’s banging around on the drums…
KF: That is exactly what happens!
AL: I’ve got to the picture now, Kirsten. Thank you for your time.